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  • Athelstone posted an update 2 years, 5 months ago

    Been watching telly today and I have this to say: NEW CLEAR. that is NEW CLEAR. Two words, new and clear. Not, I should point out, three words: NEW QUEUE LAR.

    • New Queue has a hint of birdsong about it. A distraction in these ghastly times? :/

      • It’s one of those words. I hear it mispronounced almost as often as it is pronounced correctly. The curious thing about it is that it really only has two parts, both of which are simple word-sounds in their own right: new and clear. I even hear people who work closely with things nu-cue-ler get it wrong.
        There’s a theory that the British, and a few others, pronounce the word lieutenant as LEFtenant because the French “lieu” at the start was originally “luef”. However, I suspect that actually there came a point when the majority pronounced it incorrectly and it became the accepted British pronunciation.
        Maybe new-clear will eventually be forgotten in favour of new-queue-lar.

    • I’d not heard of that one. Do people really say that? Yuck…
      I’m always fascinated by the way words change pronunciation and meaning, for example Beaulieu becomes Byoolee but Beauchamp becomes Beecham.
      And, speaking of lieutenant, I can see how a word that must have originally meant ‘place holder’ became used like ‘Lord Lieutentant of Wherever,’ but how it became a junior military officer’s rank is less obvious to me.

      • Pronunciation is a curious thing. I expect the list is very long and finds a home amongst both the well-heeled and the down-at-heel. So we have Magdalen College Oxford which we are admonished to pronounce in the medieval way “Maudlin”. This pronunciation evolved over time, but at least the middle-English speakers had the sense to spell it “Maudlyn”.
        Incidentally, I’m over my irritation at nu-cue-ler (until next time). People should pronounce as they see fit, providing they are understood.
        As for lieutenant, I imagine that originally the officer would be “the General’s” lieutenant and so on, i.e. a specific officer’s deputy and that over time it was formalised as a rank. The British Army still has Lieutenant General and Lieutenant Colonel in addition to Lieutenant and Second Lieutenant.

        • I’ve heard the new-queue-lar version. It does sound odd but I’ve wondered if, unlike me, the speaker isn’t old enough to have grown up with nuclear as a familiar word and a consistent threat.

          • Hah, that did occur to me. Hardly a day went by from the late 50s to the 80s when somewhere on television, radio, or simply in conversation, the word nuclear didn’t crop up.

      • Perhaps it’s the same. Place holder for the captain under whose command the lieutenant is acting. Does that make sense?
        Re pronunciation, here’s the OED:

        The origin of the βtype of forms (which survives in the usual British pronunciation, though the spelling represents the αtype) is difficult to explain. The hypothesis of a mere misinterpretation of the graphic form (u read as v), at first sight plausible, does not accord with the facts. In view of the rare Old French form luef for lieu (with which compare especially the 15th cent. Scots forms luf-, lufftenand above) it seems likely that the labial glide at the end of Old French lieu as the first element of a compound was sometimes apprehended by English-speakers as a v or f. Possibly some of the forms may be due to association with leave n.1 or lief adj.

        In 1793 Walker gives the actual pronunciations as /lɛv-/ /lɪvˈtɛnənt/ , but expresses the hope that ‘the regular sound, lewtenant’ will in time become current. In England this pronunciation /ljuːˈtɛnənt/ is almost unknown. A newspaper quot. of 1893 in Funk’s Standard Dict. Eng. Lang. says that /lɛfˈtɛnənt/ is in the U.S. ‘almost confined to the retired list of the navy’.

        • Speaking of the nuclear threat, I’m reminded that Aldermaston, where the Canpaign for Nuclear (never new=queue-lar) Disarmament used to march to when Ah were a lad, is in Berkshire. Now I wonder when we started pronouncing that Barkshire, because a certain piece of rhyming slang suggests that Cockneys, at least, used to say it the way Americans still do.