@libby
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School literature lessons often had a lot to answer for @Athelstone . I gave up with them and returned to Eng Lit A level ten years later at evening classes. A vastly improved experience 🙂
This discussion is really helpful. I feel a bit fraudulent talking about this stuff as though I spend hours every week beta reading and have heaps of experience. Apart from requests from my self-edit group I generally feedback on short pieces of writing about once a week, if that, on Jericho Writers’ Townhouse. I might also review a synopsis or pitch or respond to other critiquers’ comments.
I do wonder if I offer too many/unwanted suggestions. I like it when critiquers do it with my writing but this may not be a universal wish. It would be useful to know what other Denizens prefer.
Hi @JaneShuff , you’re right, my list looks daunting and I don’t think I’d ever include all these topics in a beta read. Two reasons really. An experienced writer will be good at most of these things already. A novice might sink under this amount of detail; it could put them off writing and off me too. Also, novices often seem to have one or two main things which are stopping the rest of the text working, such as too much backstory or too much telling, so those would be the topics I’d focus on.
Having said that, when it comes to experienced writers, especially if they’re getting ready to submit the ms, I would work through the full checklist and add in whatever else came to mind, otherwise I’d feel I was serving them short. They can always ignore what I say 🙂
I think I’d be a different kind of reader, @RichardB, if I’d been a more instinctive writer. It took me a lot of patience and many disappointing surprises to learn how fiction works, and how my own writing didn’t make the grade. I still have a way to go. Having been quite good at academic writing – though a plodding academic for the short period I tried it – my skills weren’t generally transferable.
I’ve never come across any creative writing which had absolutely nothing to recommend it. Even when the author hasn’t yet grasped the role of imagination in making themself and the reader think, there’s usually a germ of an interesting story idea or a sense of rhythm in the sentences.
The possibility of upsetting the writer too much is always a concern. As well as finding things to offer encouragement about I try to show I’m taking the writing and author seriously, that whatever their aim is I think it’s a worthwhile one.
A quick reminder to anyone interested in this month’s competition that we are half way through the month. Here’s a repost of the details:
The other day I discovered that sabulous means sandy or gritty. For this month’s competition please use sand and/or grit as a prompt for a piece of fiction or non-fiction, word range 100 – 500. You can use the word sabulous itself if you wish but you don’t have to.
Be literal at least some of the time. If a problem is figuratively gritty, let it somehow have actual particles too.
Deadline is midnight on Sunday 31st July.
Beta reading other people’s writing has taught me all sorts of things. I wouldn’t want to be without it. It’s satisfying too, that link with someone else’s thought processes and their ambitions for their work.
I can come back with my experiences of being beta read but in the meantime, as Jane says: ‘my experience of the book as a reader.’
I can’t help reading every piece of fiction, published or not, through a writer’s lens. For beta reading this inevitably leads to an editor’s list of thoughts, but so it can with published books; for instance, the bestseller whose narrative voice inexplicably keeps changing tense; the otherwise supple writer who grinds the gears when moving point of view or going into or out of a flashback.
In the background there’s a third question. If someone hopes to be trad published, successfully self pubbed or get placed in a competition, it probably matters that they show a sense of contemporary writing and readers. Most writers do. It’s generally not a problem, though sometimes I feel a novel or story could stretch a bit more to reference modern concerns and topics, all while not being clunky! This is different from wondering whether someone’s draft novel may meet an agent’s idea of a coming trend or slot successfully into a movement that’s been running a while. Publishing and its fashions and mechanics are beyond my knowledge. And like a lot to do with beta reading, the question of whether something is ‘now’ is subjective, and my own writing, and reading, is often not of-the-moment which is perhaps why it’s something I look at.
Here are other things that I consider, some more objective than others. They all rise from what I think important and may not feel useful for other readers and writers.
Voice – basically, is there one?
Characterisation – can I see and hear the characters? Are there too many of them for a short story or first chapter?
Dialogue – realistic? Different characters sound different? Used as an info dump?
Setting – not enough or too much? If there’s historical detail does it sound right.
Use of sensory info, not restricted to sight alone
Sense of a wider world beyond the page (not necessarily relevant)
Sense of place (again, the role of place varies according to writer)
Language – rhythmic, varied, good range of vocabulary. If figurative language is used, does it work?
Style. This morphs with language and probably everything else as well. Too much telling, not enough showing? Over-use of filter words. Not enough variation in narrative/psychic distance, or awkward use of same. Overwritten/underwritten? Maybe a mix of the two, and a patchiness in general.
Syntax, grammar, spelling. Paragraphs. Novice writers sometimes don’t know how to get the best out of paragraphs but experienced writers can miss the value of a paragraph change, for example — one the things it can be difficult to judge in one’s own writing.
Structure. I look at this at the end though I’ll have started asking questions about it from the beginning. Starts in right place? Not rushed towards end? All sorts can come under structure. Right point of view? Background details slipped in effectively or too much/little backstory? Narrative drive/rising tension and appropriately varied pacing? Is there an authorly awareness of taking the reader with them, and conversely of letting the reader work out stuff on their own.
Themes/wider questions – are these interesting? This is where I’d think about the general contemporaneity of the story and writing, applying the same questions to historical stories as to modern ones.
If this is a competition entry has it fulfilled the brief.
For all writing, does it achieve its own aims? Does a dystopian narrative feel dystopian – that kind of thing. With novice authors it may be impossible to judge the aims if they don’t yet know themselves what kind of writing theirs is or really what they want to achieve. But, for example, if something starts off reading like literary fiction, does it keep this up. And where does the writing feel most comfortable.
My theory, Richard, is that the program looks at content rather than style. I leave you to decide if that idea fits with your novel! Possibly the program throws POV into the mix.
I suppose Joyce and Brown both spent some time in Paris…
PS That should be: I could definitely, not probably, learn a lot from other beta readers 🙂 At the moment I do beta reading in a particular way and that’s probably not the best way possible or at any rate not for all authors. Expanding my ideas would be a good thing.
A discussion on beta reading sounds a good idea. I could probably learn a lot from the way other people approach beta reads.
I don’t think I’d want to offer my beta reading services to a wider public, as it were. I’m happy to do it for members here and for people who pop up on the site asking for a reader from whoever is available. I generally stick to realist adult fiction as my knowledge of other types is too limited. If someone finds my feedback useful that’s great and if they don’t, well it was always the luck of the draw who they’d get and no promises were made by me about quality of said feedback. But to say I’m available and someone to specifically pick me, that feels more demanding and less comfortable. Added to which I have limited time and would only take on first chapters, synopses or short stories, say up to 3k words. Also in relation to time, my priority is the other members of the 2016 self-editing group.
@Bellam I hope the writing mojo comes back. And the reading and sax playing. These big events like Covid can really knock the oomph out of all sorts of things.
I agree with everything said so far, from the time pressures for people with publications etc in the works via Richard’s points about the site layout right through to feeling that posting stuff may not be worth the effort. And yes, idle chat would be lovely.
I don’t use social media but I’m quite active on Jericho Writers and therefore could transfer some of that time to here.
I’ve thought about doing a blog entry or two but don’t have the spare capacity to develop non-fiction writing, appealing though it is. I’m reading Will Eaves’ essay collection, Broken Consort, and even trying to write as well as he does would be an interesting thing to do. But with a draft novel I’m determined to finish in the foreseeable future, it’s all hands on the fiction deck. Well, two hands – which is of course the problem. Not enough time. Even on the JW site, a lot of contributors come and go quickly and there are many more of them than of us.
Doing the monthly comps has been very helpful and rewarding. I am reaching the point of feeling I need a change of format from that for my monthly non-novel efforts and am thinking about microfiction – 100 to 150 words max. So if anyone is interested in that I’d be happy to moderate a monthly group, or a two-monthly group might be better. It wouldn’t have to be competition based. Posting drafts for comment might be just as useful. Or just talking about microfiction we’ve read and what we’ve enjoyed about it.
I’d like to carry on with he monthly comps too but know from experience I don’t have the time and creative power to do both.
One last thought which may be peculiar to me. I’d feel more comfortable posting my fiction efforts to a password-protected group rather than to the Den’s front page, as it were. There’s something about the open to the internet aspect which discourages me even though the world isn’t spending its time accessing the Den. Would that it were. But this hang-up could be just my psyche. Others may think yet another group would be counter-productive, so I raise this just as a general point.
I like Kate’s suggestion of a fortnightly writing topic. A clearly marked heading and space might draw in potential new members among people who are Googling for writing advice. But it would need the links problem to be solved.
As a member of Kate’s SE 2016 group, this site has been, as she says, a lifeline. A small number of us reports back at least weekly for support, advice and generally to keep in touch. We email too when required and, viruses allowing, occasionally meet in real life. As the groups are currently the busiest part of the Den perhaps a pooled area where the different groups could share experiences would be worth trying. At the moment we’re siloed. The SE 2014 group feels like a ship in the night with possibly unnecessary ocean between us. What do the speculative fiction group talk about? There must be topics of general interest and specific information which non members could learn from.
Maybe an open group/s which highlights a few discussions would also encourage new members to private groups accepting new members.
I’ll give all this and everyone’s posts some more thought and return later. Breakfast calls 🙂
Sound Waves (470 words)
An aeroplane churns the sky but no siren has sounded, and behind the blackout fabric at my attic window there are no searchlights. The aircraft must be one of ours.
In my armchair I pick up today’s paper but find it hard to concentrate. We have all turned into experts in aircraft identification and the noise from this one has the mid-range rumble of twin engines alongside that feathery note made by two propellers almost in sync but not quite.
In the flat below, the young woman runs a bath. The walls and floors in this narrow townhouse are thin but in any case sound has become like the sweeps on radar screens I study at work, except that I can’t switch off my ears. I try again with the paper. When the woman turns off the taps, one or other gives a short whine.
The aeroplane has gone and instead there’s the grizzle from the woman’s baby. He complains, then pauses, complains, pauses. If he starts a full-lung holler, she will pick him up even if it means missing her bath. If a siren wails, she’ll do the same.
Silence all round. I could have a try at the crossword. But my attention is fixed, unhelpfully, on trying to hear the air move, a dance of particles that I can’t locate.
A grumble again, piston driven. A steady sound to match a mapped route. A crump and a blow-out of breaking glass several streets away. Up I jump and, in the seconds needed to identify the bomber’s direction and to pick up my coat, the door below slams shut. The baby’s tetchiness echoes down the stairwell with his mother’s footsteps, heading towards the cellar.
One of the many absurd things one hears said is that people in bath-tubs plummet down through hit houses, tub and all. At least she hasn’t suffered that.
A siren howls, mournful with presumptive grief, but not saying whether there are more aeroplanes or just the one. Up to a high pitch the banshee goes, down again with a keening fall, drawing breath before the next upward yowl. I put on my coat, gather my reading spectacles and the paper. I’ll keep warm, or offer the coat to the mother to keep her warm, and I’ll have something to read in the cellar.
I collect a pair of scissors. Cutting paper dolls from the newspaper might entertain the baby, a good idea I think, as the siren is in full lament all the way down four flights of stairs. When I reach the bottom, my breathing has synchronized with it, my lungs tighten in time to the notes.
The call gives way to the single pitch of the all-clear. With a slow breath I turn and start the climb back up the stairs.
Re the intentional fallacy, that’s an illustration of how many things which used not have an ethical dimension now do so, or do so more than they did before. Food shopping is another example.
But back to literature, I recently discovered the Literary Friction podcasts
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/literary-friction/id1000387053I thought this one about whether you judge someone by what they read is interesting
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/literary-friction-minisode-three/id1000387053?i=1000433931359This is a fabulous cover @raine Classy and enticing.
Apologies, I thought I’d replied when I first saw it but obviously I hadn’t 🙁
Congratulations, @janette . Two shivers for the price of one. A very enjoyable story.
Thanks, Richard. I tried to copy the link first of all and couldn’t make it work. Thank you for a working link to Emma Darwin.
BTW have you seen this on the BBC news website today?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55937512
Blast, link not working. BBC news website, go to the Wales tab. “Station reopening at Bow Street brings first trains for 56 years”
Sorry, disconnected links aren’t terribly helpful 🙁
As Richard says, this seems more about style, and a rigid editor, than about the rich possibilities of first-person narrators.
I’m the first to agree that repetition of ‘I’ can be a problem, just as repetition of any word can trip up the reader. And the over-repeated ‘I’ can be hard to get rid of, as I know from my own efforts.
It can also make the reader feel kept at a frustrating distance from the first-person character. Some of the answer lies in moving further inside the protagonist’s head. It’s easier then to cut back on some of the I’s. See the great Emma Darwin’s blog This Itch of Writing and see if you can find the one on Psychic Distance: what it is and how to use it.
The Den seems not to like my link so I can’t post it.
If you don’t already know Emma Darwin’s blog, it’s a treasure trove. It’s only downside is the search function – useless – so when you find a really helpful post (and most are) keep the link or whatever.
If you get really stuck finding the right blog post, let me know.
Another point is that there are times when an author may want to keep the first-person narrator at a distance so the reader can keep a bird’s eye view of them, so to speak. Have a look at the first page of Asylum by Patrick McGrath. The narrator is pompous, opinionated, and frequently wrong. McGrath wants his readers to judge this man, to think for themselves what’s really going on in this story. He does that by using the character’s pomposity and the frequent use of I, me and my.
The opening pages of Asylum are on the Amazon sales website.
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What a tantalising range of stories and good use of the prompts. The standard is so high, and having a small number of entries paradoxically doesn’t make it any easier! In all of them I particularly enjoyed the voices both in the dialogue and the narration. I know Sandra’s piece is an excerpt from a longer work and Ath’s and Kate’s could be complete in themselves or extracts too.
In order of submission:
Sandra’s @sandradavies episode from a police procedural is pacey and detailed, with well-drawn characters whose dialogue jumps off the page. I felt the ebony pendant was going to lead the investigation into what might be the true murkiness of Ursula Bothwell’s demise. Intriguing! I liked how some of characters had more than one name. ‘Also known as …’ indeed. I could hear the Scots accent too.
Ath’s @athelstone story of an environmental crime with retribution already built in is also very pacey with a strong narrative voice. Details of the setting and the background to the events are well deployed to provide a rich scene, as is the variety of narrative techniques. The come-uppance for Jacko and Aldercy’s greed is very pleasing as well as funny.
Kate @katemachon has cleverly created a story from dialogue and provided lots of fun with contrariness. The hapless map reader’s revenge is classic comedy. The dialogue is really snappy. I felt the two characters could be siblings – there’s that mix of familiarity and ironic conversation along with my sense that these two don’t see each other on a daily basis. I enjoyed how the road-map fan liked high-tech cinema and the sat-nav admirer liked the traditional bowling alley. It’s a nice comment on how our preferences can seem arbitrary and it made the title, ‘Directions’, a satisfying play on the word.
Well done all of you. The winner is Ath for the overall voice and range of narrative techniques that enrich this story or episode.
Three days to go before the monthly competition deadline! I know many Denizens are busy with the annual challenge. Still, as my grandmother used to say when spooning out seconds at the lunch table, any more for any more?
A half-time reminder, for anyone thinking of entering this month’s Den competition, that we’re half way through January.
I hope everyone’s year is going well/reasonably well in the general Covid circumstances.
That’s a lovely surprise, and for the new year too! Thank you, Ath.
Thank you also to everyone who entered. A very compelling selection of stories, as always, and a wide range of styles. I’ll have a think about what to set for the January competition.
Happy new year, if we’re allowed to say that after 2020 🙂
372 words
Fracture
The room was big, like a workshop, but the machinery was rows of people seated on chairs all facing the same way. Silence nestled beside and around them, cut by infrequent remarks. What dreary weather today, no sign of sun. A bit stuffy in here. I hope we’re not kept waiting long.
The ceiling was open to the roof. Struts made patterns of angles and lines. Around these interconnections mingled the warmth from people in their winter coats.
Along one wall of the room were five doors, all shut. Nothing could happen to anyone on the chairs until a door was opened and their name was called, but the doors remained closed. Even so, the mood in the room was of patience, of resignation. There was no choice. Forbearance threaded the rows.
No one here was dying, or if they were it wasn’t the reason for waiting. This part of the hospital was for life and its processes. The man with the broken foot, strapped up but on the mend; the woman with a swollen knee, that unenjoyable skiing holiday; the grandfather with snatches of shoulder pain, and interrupted nights.
The orthopaedic clinic. One young woman, sitting at the back, looked around and, unable to see into the thoughts of the people in rows, wondered what they feared.
The mishap while she’d been on tour. A slip down uneven steps, her hand put out behind to break the fall. Automatic. Shooting pain. A taxi, called by a kindly passer-by, to the town’s small hospital. The wrist re-set.
At least she hadn’t been carrying the violin, hadn’t tumbled onto it in its case and crushed it.
At home the splint came off and she had started exercises. The pain of holding the bow. Time and patience, the GP had said. Let’s get an x-ray.
Now, a call to the hospital near her home. In the orthopaedic waiting room, one of the five doors opened and a doctor in an open-necked shirt, with an ID badge clipped to his breast pocket, called her name.
He held the door open for her. You’re the violinist, he said.
Yes, I am.
She was a violinist, in this brief moment, stepping into the room.
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I haven’t removed the internet connection from my laptop because it’s too useful when I want to check something, but keeping the laptop for writing and using a PC for everything else – emails, online purchases etc – makes distraction less of a problem. When I’m using the laptop I’m in writing mode. It’s a little thing but it helps.
Thank you, Sea, for the challenge. It was a challenge, too! Not my normal kind of writing.
Congratulations, Sandra. An excellent story.
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